When you’re up against someone who is determined to demean, devalue, and destroy you, you need to arm yourself with a set of skills.
Introducing Rebecca Zung, Esq.
“I’m a divorce attorney by trade, but I do a lot of other things.”
Attorney Rebecca Zung works in the field of divorce law. Naturally, her line of work led her to come across many narcissists, both through representing them and defending clients against them. She authored two books, Breaking Free: A Step by Step Guide (2013) and Negotiate Like you M.A.T.T.E.R.: The Sure Fire Method to Step up and Win (2019). After publishing her second book, she came to the realization that she had fallen victim to two covert narcissists in her life. Deciding to take her knowledge and experience with narcissism to Youtube, Rebecca’s channel grew from 100 to over 40,000 in a matter of months. She is passionate about helping people get out of harmful relationships with narcissists, both in a legal and personal setting. In March, she released a negotiation program for dealing with narcissists found at winmynegotiation.com. You can find all her information at rebeccazung.com.
“I get the question sometimes: ‘How could you have represented narcissists?’ Well, just the same as anybody ended up in a relationship with a narcissist. They don’t act like a narcissist when they’re sitting in my office… And they don’t even seem like narcissists at all until you start representing them and they start [saying] that everything you do is wrong and blaming the attorney. And then you start to realize: Wait a minute, this person isn’t who I thought they were… You don’t really realize until you’re deep into the situation.”
Rebecca Zung, Esq.
Interview with Rebecca Zung, Experienced Negotiator
Dr. Judy: As a seasoned attorney, how do you recognize a covert narcissist?
RZ: The way you recognize a covert narcissist is they attach themselves to you… they think they can get something out of you, some kind of “narcissistic supply.” A supply can be anything that feeds their ego. What happens is they expect a lot. They expect special treatment, they expect that everyone is going to give them their adulation, respect, and have the outcomes that they deserve. As an attorney, they start questioning why we’re billing for certain things or asking about reducing the retainer, saying “how come you didn’t do this, that, or the other thing?” or “how come you didn’t return my phone call right away?”
Dr. Judy: What do you think is their driving force?
RZ: It’s always going to be about feeding that need for external value because they have no inner sense of value. They’re these fragile people inside. Something happened in their childhood where they came to this conclusion that they had to manipulate the world in order to get what they want. They need an endless amount of supply. How they most often get supply from their targets is by devaluing them and manipulating them. Coercive control. And then they go back and forth between love bombing and devaluing and that’s how they keep people in their “vortex of craziness.”
Even in the discard phase, they can be love bombing because they still want to know: “do I have control over this person?” In a divorce setting, how that will look is [the narcissist saying] “oh, come on, we can work this out,” “you don’t need that lawyer,” and whatever they need to say to get that person who might also have control over their target out of the picture. And they start doing that when they’re afraid things aren’t going to go their way.
Dr. Judy: Basically, they’re trying to get rid of you because you’re the best defense from their tactics.
Dr. Judy: What are some phrases that work with narcissists?
RZ: All the best phrases are going to be around disarming them in the sense that you’re not going to get down into the mud with them. They often use phrases that they know will inflame you. Instead of [responding defensively], saying “I hear what you’re saying, I disagree with what your statement was, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.” Take yourself out of the emotion of it and you’re looking at it as if you’re reporting the news. I always tell people to look at it as “just the facts.” That’s why I tell people to go no contact or minimum contact, because that way you don’t have to be holding onto your emotions all the time, it’s just that little bit of time that you have contact with them.
Dr. Judy: I imagine you spend a lot of time with the person that is on the other side of “demean, devalue, destroy” which can get very, very costly.
RZ: Yes, the average cost of a divorce is $15,000 across the country, I think that’s actually a very low number… The average cost of a divorce with a narcissist is about four times as much, so $60,000. I’ve known many people who have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars. The problem is that narcissists get supply from jerking you around.
Don’t try the collaborative process, it’s just an opportunity for the narcissist to jerk you around. And don’t try this whole thing where lawyers are sending letters back and forth to try to settle the case. It’s like trying to catch a wave and pin it down. They’ll constantly be moving the goalpost. All of these things cost money and they just give the narcissist supply. Don’t bother!
Dr. Judy: At the bottom line, can you really successfully negotiate with a narcissist? It sounds like you’ve really gotta pin them down and seal the deal quickly and you have to have all these different checks and balances in place that threaten them if they don’t behave, so to speak.
RZ: 100%. That’s exactly how you do it. You’re ethically manipulating the manipulator. And here’s the thing: most narcissists attract empaths, so most of the time, the person who has to do all this pinning down is the empath. And the empath is the person who goes “I don’t want to fight” or “I don’t want to be mean,” and then they get taken advantage of over and over again. You gotta come out of the gate, it’s counterintuitive. It feels really foreign to that person who has been so used to enabling the narcissist and trying to help that person. But you have to do it if you want to get back to what’s fair, whatever the law provides.
Dr. Judy: So that’s where they need your backbone. The narcissist depends on the empath to be empathic and to bend and give in. And that’s where you come in and give them a reality check and tell them what it means in the long run.
Dr. Judy: I have quite an international audience; do you do Skype and Zoom?
RZ: I have a program called ‘S.L.A.Y. Your Negotiation With a Narcissist’ and S.L.A.Y. stands for
- S. Strategy: Developing a super strong strategy. This includes figuring out what kind of narcissist you’re dealing with, what to expect from them, and developing action steps
- L. Leverage: Creating invincible leverage which is ultimately going to be what motivates and squeezes that narcissist into doing what you want them to do
- A. Anticipate: Anticipating what the narcissist is going to do and being 2 steps ahead of them
- Y. You: Focus on you and your case. Take care of yourself, but also learn how to be on the offensive rather than the defensive.
If you download the Win My Negotiation worksheet, you can access my free webinar on 3 Must-Have Secrets to Communicating with a Narcissist. The [S.L.A.Y.] program is all pre-recorded modules, as soon as they purchase the program, they immediately can download it all and have access to everything. They’re universal principles. I do some limited in-person live coaching via Zoom.
Dr. Judy: Anything else that you would like to communicate to the audience?
RZ: Just don’t give in and don’t give up. Narcissists are the worst before they’re getting ready to give up. They go into these narcissistic rages and tantrums because they think that by doing that, you’re going to finally give in. There are resources out there to help you get where you want to go.
